
Dominican friar (@opdomcentral). Metaphysics, medieval Latin & Chinese, and assorted tidbits. Views are my own and do not represent my school, @hkbaptistu.
Hong Kong
Joined October 2008
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My new book, 'Wisdom Proceeding: A Thomistic Account of Theology,' is now UP ONLINE AND AVAILABLE TO DOWNLOAD FOR FREE!
taylorfrancis.com/books/oa-m…
倪神父 retweeted
A tormented monk came to Abba Lot, heavily burdened by a severe sin, believing he could no longer be a monk. Lot said: “I will take half of your sin upon myself and bear it with you; only stay here and do not despair.”
Christian love is never perfected alone, but only together.
倪神父 retweeted
For those of you who like Baroque Scholasticism, and C. Wagner's claims about my views of satisfaction being ill-founded, this Facebook post will be of interest.
I discovered that Wagner derived his voluntaristic view of satisfaction from John Poinsot.
facebook.com/share/p/19e3yRo…
The Weeknd released a new song while in Hong Kong, titled "Hong Kong."
youtu.be/YBhL2a7CKYQ?si=hFcg…
倪神父 retweeted
Sadly, we have been informed that the number of martyrs from the terrorist attack on St George’s Church in Jordan has risen from 7 to 9.
We pray for our brothers who have borne witness to Christ through their martyrdom, as well as for the swift recovery of the injured.
For those of you who like Baroque Scholasticism, and C. Wagner's claims about my views of satisfaction being ill-founded, this Facebook post will be of interest.
I discovered that Wagner derived his voluntaristic view of satisfaction from John Poinsot.
facebook.com/share/p/19e3yRo…
A tormented monk came to Abba Lot, heavily burdened by a severe sin, believing he could no longer be a monk. Lot said: “I will take half of your sin upon myself and bear it with you; only stay here and do not despair.”
Christian love is never perfected alone, but only together.
This view is not a dogma of the Catholic Church: that we are capable of 'balancing the scales of justice' due for sin.
Just as we cannot are made holy only in union with Christ, the only sense/way in which we can repair effects of our sins is by sharing our burdens with Christ.
Replying to @StMichael71
The objection is not that Purgatory is painful but that I am capable of balancing the scales of justice between me and God, and that therefore Christ hasn't done this sufficiently.
As ever, the principal error in the Roman church is justification and everything flows from it.
倪神父 retweeted
To understand 'vicarious satisfaction' for sin, let me give an analogy:
I am willing to enter into relationship with you, and you are willing to forgive me, but I have done something serious to disrupt our relationship.
Imagine a repentant murder who meets my victim, in heaven.
倪神父 retweeted
If the terminological precision obscures the reality, we have good reason not to be precise.
In particular, what I am saying is clear: a view of purgatory involving RESTORATIVE justice - as opposed to retributive causing of pain to restore God's honor - is perfectly Catholic.
The problem with Fr. Rooney here isn’t that the intuition is bad; it is that the terminology is completely defective, which causes him to unknowingly set himself in complete opposition to texts like this (which Gemini did not send him for some reason): “punishment is required after faults are forgiven for two reasons, namely, to resolve a debt and to offer a remedy... in the penitential forum punishment must be reckoned for both reasons... But the punishment of purgatory is only for paying the debt, for at that point there is no further room for sinning.” (In IV Sent. d. 20, q. 1, a. 2, qc. 1)
For St. Thomas, there are not two forms of punishment (“vindictive” and “medicinal”); there are four forms of punishment (poena simpliciter/proper punishment, satisfactory, purgatorial, and medicinal).
He lays out three of them in ST I-II, q. 87, a. 8: satisfactory punishment, which is voluntarily assumed and can be borne for another; punishment “inasmuch as it has the nature of punishment,” which is only ever for one’s own sin; and punishment “which has the nature of medicine.” The fourth is named in SCG: the punishment God inflicts on one who does not exact it of himself “will not be called satisfactory, since it was not from the choice of the sufferer, but purgatorial” (SCG III, c. 158). It is closely related to satisfactory punishment vis-a-vis the end and voluntarity, but is slightly different as to the origin. This is why they are sometimes identified.
This is exactly what the Counter-Reformation theologians said to the Protestants, who conceded castigatio but denied poena. This is exactly how Catholic theologians refuted the moral arguments against satisfaction given by the Socinian heretics. This is how theologians responded to the various shades of modernist theologians and liberals throughout the 19th and 20th centuries who had a similar problem due to their complete acceptance of contemporary juridical notions that accepted punishment as merely medicinal.
After guilt is forgiven, it is fine to say that there is no vindictive punishment properly speaking (although certain theologians keep the terminology insofar as vindication touches the order of justice rather than the person... which is why it is often said that satisfaction is offered to the vindictive justice of God). St. Thomas himself says exactly this, and then separates the two aspects Fr. Rooney confuses: “Satisfaction is both punitive, inasmuch as it is an act of vindicative justice, and medicinal, inasmuch as it is a kind of sacramental. An indulgence therefore takes the place of satisfaction inasmuch as it is punitive, because the punishment another bore is imputed to this man as if he had borne it, and so the debt of punishment is removed; but it does not take the place of satisfaction inasmuch as it is medicinal, because the pronenesses to sin remain... But for the dying such preservation is not necessary, but only liberation from the debt of punishment.” (Quodl. II, q. 8, a. 2, ad 3)
One of the strongest points for the traditional account (as one can see from the countless indulgence bulls from the Roman Pontiffs) is how bound up it is with Catholic praxis. Indulgences really do not make any sense under a purely 'medicinal' view of the matter...this gets especially obvious when you spend a few minutes thinking about the fact that the baptized have no debt of temporal punishment (which I will explain below).
Theologians clarify that the liability to temporal punishment is no longer a liability to punishment simply speaking, but to satisfactory punishment (ST I-II, q. 87, a. 6): the debt remains, but it is paid voluntarily, insofar as we have violated the order of justice and inflicted injury upon the rights of God, and understand the moral obligation to restore this (note: closely related to this is the purgatorial punishment, which differs slightly from the satisfactory). All you need to do to understand what he means by these matters is simply to read his articles on satisfactory punishment. It is quite easy, actually!
The faithful, by charity, are zealous to restore the right honor of God and voluntarily receive penal afflictions so as to restore this honor (which is exactly the context of the passages where St. Thomas and others require charity for satisfaction when they are wrested from their context).
By the way, this is, in my opinion, why many are so uncomfortable with the notion. Satisfaction cannot be explained by some sort of necessity or (primarily) as some good of man; it has to be explained in terms of the rights and honor of God. St. Thomas requires that in satisfaction “something be subtracted from the sinner which redounds to the honor of God” (In IV Sent. d. 15, q. 1, a. 4, qc. 1), and adopts Anselm’s definition, “to render to God the honor owed” (Suppl. q. 12, a. 3). To justify a doctrine as primarily for the honor of God and to vindicate his rights makes many uncomfortable! It also supposes an objective order of justice (which Fr. Rooney derides as “abstract”), which is a mockery to contemporary jurists and does not correspond too well to modern notions: “it is not that the deficiency is always healed by the punishment in the one in whom it is, as is clear in the damned and in a thief who is hanged, but rather that the punishment compensates for the deficiency in the state of the universe or the republic due to the order of justice that appears in the punishment.” (In II Sent., d. 42, q. 1, a. 2)
We should simply adopt St. Paul VI's description that these punishments are imposed “for the purification of souls, for the defense of the sanctity of the moral order, and for the restoration of the glory of God to its full majesty” (Indulgentiarum doctrina, n. 2).
To reduce the satisfactory punishment to the “medicinal” is completely false. As briefly mentioned above, it makes mincemeat of quite a few fundamental doctrines and practices in Catholicism. To consider just one example among many... the newly baptized adult who has many habitual attachments to sin has no debt of temporal punishment and, upon death, immediately goes to heaven (“no satisfactory punishment is imposed on the baptized, because they are wholly freed by the satisfaction of Christ,” ST III, q. 49, a. 3, ad 2; cf. Florence, DS 1316); on the other hand, the man who has been Catholic for decades, living in a spirit of penance and far more holy than the newly baptized, suffers in purgatory. That is quite a surprise, isn't it!
This is also why Fr. Rooney’s recent words on the Passion are so defective. It is true that Christ did not suffer vindictive punishments inflicted upon him by God; yet he did suffer satisfactory punishments insofar as he voluntarily suffered penal afflictions, offered to the vindictive justice of God (note: not inflicted by the vindictive justice of God, but offered to the vindictive justice of God...an important consideration). “Christ bore a satisfactory punishment, not for his own sins but for ours” (ST I-II, q. 87, a. 7, ad 3). This was suffered to restore the rights of God, which we creatures have so grievously injured.
倪神父 retweeted
By contrast, Wagner seems to think satisfaction just IS imposing pain to compensate a loss of God's honor, as if the pain itself imposed restores God's honor, whether or not it restores anything else in the order of relations among persons.
I reject this story.
倪神父 retweeted
I hold satisfaction aims at repairing relationships, where repairing/restoring relationships IS to restore justice & God's honor. This brings pain/suffering accidentally; but restoring honor/justice is not simply imposing pain.
IN SUM: SATISFACTION IS RESTORATION.
倪神父 retweeted
The baptismal case is not one in which someone is still quite sinful but God looks the other way, nor the more holy person punished simply for rectifying God's honor.
It would take me too long to deal with PSA, but I don't deny Christ makes satisfaction, despite what W. implies.
倪神父 retweeted
The mature person can BECOME clean by penance, as a saint can be so holy as to immediately enter heaven. But the mature person who needs penance goes to purgatory in light of the effects of his past sins not being repaired before death. The nephyte IS holier in this respect.
倪神父 retweeted
The mature Christian who is regularly committing sins is not more holy, simply speaking, than a newly baptized person.
Baptism remits all guilt & stains of sin entirely. They are made completely holy in baptism, ex opere operato, and so are MORE clean of sin.
倪神父 retweeted
A newly baptized person is not as tried in a life of holiness, but baptism entirely cleanses one of sin, and thus the person is constituted as more holy in THAT SENSE than a mature Christian who is regularly atoning for sins they continue to commit.
倪神父 retweeted
6. W. notes: "the newly baptized adult...upon death, immediately goes to heaven [whereas] the man who has been Catholic for decades, living in a spirit of penance and far more holy than the newly baptized, suffers in purgatory."
I think W. misdiagnoses the case.
倪神父 retweeted
Compensation involves taking away something from the sinner that conduces to God's honor & restores justice: in satisfaction, friendship.
The 'taking away' in question is not simply suffering, but offering a good to God out of love as a way of repairing broken relationships.



